I could have just as easily picked the ‘90s as the decade I would write about obsessively because I certainly have more than my fair share of opinions about the films made in that era.
How could I not? After all, I moved to Los Angeles in 1990. I started working in and around the industry immediately. I watched all of this go down and started building my creative resume at the same time.
By this point in the warm-up season, I feel like Aundria, Craig and I all started to look forward to these recordings, which I hoped would happen. I love these two and I love doing this with them. All I wanted with this new podcast was to build a place where people would want to come and have cool film conversations with me and a few friends. And it feels like that’s starting to happen. Talking about the ‘90s and the films we picked brought out something emotional in all of us, and I think we walked away from this one even closer as a group.
Anyway, let’s jump right in for this week’s episode. And remember, we’ve got season two starting at the end of January. It’s going to be exciting to start releasing those episodes for you so you can hear the picks our guests have made and the conversations those picks have inspired.
DREW: I forgot to… (laughs) I literally forgot what we were doing. I was like, are they waiting on me? Did I freeze? Okay.
CRAIG: Guess what? None of this is getting edited.
D: (laughs) Alright…
[the Hip Pocket theme song plays]
D: Hi, everyone. Drew McWeeny here. You may know me from my time at Hitfix, or my early work at Ain't It Cool, or maybe you read one of my Substack newsletters. Maybe you ended up here because one of the films I wrote. Whatever the case, welcome. I am glad you were here for my new podcast, The Hip Pocket. Hip pocket movies are the ones we carry around with us, the films that ring some bell or scratch some itch, so we file them away. And whenever we're sharing movies with people, these are the movies that we reach for.
It can be just to see if you're on the same page as someone or you wanna show them this thing that means so much to you. Sometimes it's as simple as this makes me happy and I hope it makes you happy, too. Whatever the case, I think you learn a lot about people when you talk about these films and why they matter to someone. I have a hundreds of films that are like this, movies that have stuck to me for one reason or another over the last 30 years of writing films and writing about them. I am once again joined by my two friends who I look forward to sharing movies with for years to come.
First up, there's our band leader, Craig Ceravolo. Craig, what's up, man?
C: How… how are you?
D: I’m good. I'm very good. I'm excited for this one. The ‘90s were a wild time, and, uh, yeah. I, I, I'm looking forward to this because of what you picked. And also, as always, I can't do any of this without the Sonny to my Cher… my cohost, the one and only Aundria Parker. Aundria, your pick is also a winner this week, man.
AUNDRIA: Thank you so much. I, I'm fascinated by the three films that we picked for the decade of the ‘90s. I think every single one is a shocker, a surprise. I can’t…
D: I laughed at the first thing that you pointed out about them, which I did not notice, and I don't think Craig noticed, but none of them take place during the ‘90s.
A: Not a single one. They're all period pieces.
C: Yeah. I didn’t… I didn't know.
D: That's bananas. That is a truly bananas choice by all three of us. I do think though, like, even though these aren't movies about the ‘90s, these movies totally smack of the ‘90s. And, you know, this… the, the ‘90s feel like they were just yesterday to me. I moved to LA in the summer of 1990. And I kind of witnessed the turbulence of the the times as I started trying to build a life and a career here. And, you know, as much as the ’80s were defined by Reagan and Bush, the ‘90s were defined by the Clintons. Apartheid ended. Mandela walked free. Hong Kong was returned to China. The Irish settled the troubles, and Kurt Cobain exited stage left way too fucking early.
More than anything, I think in… the ‘90s is the decade of the indie movie. The decade that the fringe kind of became the mainstream. Same thing with music. And it was, it was a fascinating time for art. It really felt like the ‘70s sort of reaction to the ‘80s that had just happened. It felt like everything was looser and rawer, and film was definitely much more free to be all sorts of different things. What are your general thoughts about the ‘90s, guys?
A: Craig was saying that the ‘80s were his sweet spot, and I feel like the ‘90s are my sweet spot. That's when I started watching movies deeply and in in a different way than just consuming them as entertainment. That's when I started seeking things out, developing my own taste in movies. It's when I was devouring all the the movie stuff I could get, the movie media I could get my hands on, which back then was Premiere magazine once a month, which was incredible… and Interview magazine, which I was obsessed with. Entertainment Weekly, which actually used to be, like, a magazine with interviews and articles and not just paparazzi shots. I was, I was just building my, my language and my knowledge. And I really, I found, I found a true love and a passion for that. So the ‘90s are so important to me and my, my development as a movie person. It's also when I feel like I started sharing movies with people the most, too, so… yeah.
D: That's a big step. Like, when you start, like, finding stuff on your own and then taking it to people. I… one of my favorite things right now is when my kids bring media to me. When they're like, have you seen this? Have you heard this? Have you whatever. And I haven't. And it's happened more than once, and it's awesome. I am so excited that I do not have an omnipresent sort of, you know, view of pop culture. They're doing their own thing. They're off exploring the wilderness and bringing shit to me. And that's so cool. I love that they have their own interests and their own voices. And it's an exciting time.
And it's funny, Aundria, you put your finger on one of the things that was really great about being a film fan in the ‘90s which was the, just, flood of movie magazines. Film Threat and Movieline and, and there… and, really, that didn't start until the early ‘90s, the very late ‘80s. Premiere, I remember the very first issue in ’87. And it took a little while for it to catch on. And at first, it was, I think, four times a year, and it didn't go monthly until the ‘90s when it really became a powerhouse magazine. And it was just exciting. You could read so many things about movies. Cinefex, which I still think is maybe the greatest movie magazine of all time, was huge in the ‘90s and put out these incredible issues that were just detailed looks at how things work. I think there was good fan stuff in the ‘80s, but I think the ‘90s went mainstream for all of that kind of thing. What were your ‘90s like for movies, Craig?
C: You know, I became an adult in the ‘90s, like a young adult. You know what I mean? So I was in college in the ‘90s, and I started my first band in the ‘90s, and met my wife at the time, who would become my wife at the time in the ‘90s. And I moved to LA in the ‘90s, in the late ‘90s…
D: Yep.
C: … so it, it, all of it started to congeal for me in the ‘90s. And I discovered I, I had… I remember having a college class that was a film class, and they had, you know, on my campus, they did indie films. I discovered Hal Hartley in 1992.
D: Nice.
C: My world changed. Like, I never thought about anything so the ‘90s indie scene was, film-wise and music-wise, but film-wise, was really important to me. Like, it really shaped the person or the taste that I still have to this day. So it's really special to me, that decade.
D: Well, we're gonna actually kick things off with your pick, Craig. And I love this movie. And when we talk about sort of the decade’s big indie heroes, Allison Anders absolutely has to be part of that conversation. You picked the film where I feel like she stepped up to, kind of, a larger budget and a bigger canvas and… studio-adjacent. It's Focus. It's Gramercy. Not quite Universal, but it kinda is. And I really love the result. We're talking about the delightful 199… 19… 1996 film. There's a lot of 19s in there. Let me try that again. The 1996 film, Grace of My Heart.
[trailer for Grace of My Heart plays]
D: Yeah. I, I really like this one, and a big part of it is seeing Ileana Douglas step up and play a lead. Man, she's so good in this movie. And, Craig, knowing how much music and film together matter to you, this seems like a really “you” choice.
C: Yeah. This wasn’t… this… yeah. There, there was no way this was a a curveball. Right? I mean… and you were, like, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I love Gas Food Lodging. Right? Like…
D: Great one.
C: When I really… yeah...
D: Great movie.
C: Yeah. So she was… I wanted… yeah, I, I went back and looked. I said, what happened to Allison Anders? And she did a lot of TV after, which is great, which is fine.
D: Mhmm.
C: But this… you're right. This is the one where they kind of… she was given a bigger budget and a bigger sandbox to play in, so to speak. And she wrote this, right?
D: Yeah.
C: You know, it's just… quickly, it's based on, it's kind of loosely about Carol King, right?
D: Yeah.
C: It's not the Carol King story, but it’s, it's influenced by that… her… because Carol King has an amazing, you know, career.
D: Yeah.
C: … first as a songwriter…
D: It’s a suggested arc because of the era she overlaps.
C: Right. Like, it, it really is, just, sketches of real people. Matt Dillon plays a Brian Wilson type character. John Turturro plays a, uh… oh, shit, what's his name? The crazy Wall of Sound guy that I can't remember…
D: Phil Spector.
C: I am so embarrassed I can't remember Phil Spector's name right now, but he plays the…
D: I did that the other day! It's crazy. I did that with Phil Spector the other day.
C: You know why? Because we don't wanna remember Phil Spector.
D: Yeah. I, I think that's good. I think we all kind of have a block on when it comes to Phil Spector, which is as it should be.
C: As it should be.
D: But yes…
C: … you know, Leslie Gore, a character… like, it’s… she just hits all the buttons. And if you don't know the history of it, you can still enjoy it as a fictional story about the, the ‘60s. But if you know what's going on with the Brill Building and the, all of that stuff, it… she… it's a love letter to the decade.
[clip from Grace of My Heart plays]
D: I could see this as a… in today's space, this would be The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. This would be…
C: Yeah.
D: … something that runs into, like, three series…
C: Yep.
D: … and it would be… each season would be a different era. Like, it would be the Brian Wilson years. It would be the Brill Building years. It would be the…
A: Yeah, the Brill Building.
C: Yeah. Totally. Or or like a Daisy Jones and the Six kinda thing.
D: Yep.
A: Yeah.
D: But…
C: Oh, go ahead.
D: But, yeah, it’s… I, I am, I am not surprised that you picked this. Not only because… I think I… narratively, I can see why this appeals to you, but also, what a who’s-who behind the scenes trying to put this soundtrack together.
C: The J Mascis stuff, the Dinosaur Jr. guy…
D: It's hilarious.
C: It's insane. And, yeah, it… and he had, he's such a distinct voice that you go, that's not Brian Wilson. That's J Mascis. You know?
D: Yeah.
[a musical excerpt from Grace of My Heart plays]
C: The songs are great. You know, you mentioned earlier… we were talking about the, the… Elvis Costello doing Bacharach… like, he nails it with these songs.
D: That's one of my favorite modes of… I… I’m, like, a raving Elvis Costello lunatic. Like, I love Elvis Costello, and I love him in Burt Bacharach mode. And this… “God Give Me Strength” is one of the perfect expressions of that, where it sounds like a song that was actually released in 1968.
C: Yeah.
A: Mhmm.
D: Everything about the chord progression, the orchestration on it, especially the big version, it's amazing how much it sounds like it's of the era.
C: Yeah.
D: And it's the, the woman who sings the, the actual part in this movie, who does all the, the, the singing for Ileana Douglas. I forget her name. Kristen Vigard.
C: She was… she was… yeah, she was Annie on Broadway.
D: She was the Annie almost on Broadway. She did it for, like…
C: Oh, so she wasn’t Annie?
D: She did it for two weeks and they went, you know what? Here's the problem. You're too sweet. And so Andrea McArdle took over for her and she understudied Andrea McArdle. So she was the… yeah, she was almost Annie…
C: Wow.
D: … and it feels like her whole career has been, kind of, that… where it's kind of this… should have… I love her performance in this movie. I love the vocal performance. And when she finally does “God Give Me Strength,” standing there face to face with Matt Dillon, it's a phenomenal vocal moment. A really beautiful version of that song that is just very naked and very intimate. And I love that Ileana is able to play all of that. I do wish in some ways this had been a performance by an actor who sang…
C: Yeah. I, it…
D: … because I think that that might have made a difference for me.
C: Yeah. Mhmm. Ileana Douglas doesn't quite sell that she's singing those songs.
D: Yeah. But Kristen Vigard's voice is wonderful in this.
C: Yeah.
D: I really… I love that song. I love the… I love all the stuff they do for the girl group. I think all of that sounds terrific. I think of “Boat on the Sea,” which is by David Baerwald, who is another one of those guys who… man, if you trace his career as a producer and a writer and all the stuff he's touched over the years… I love David+David, and I love the sort of character writing he does in this…
C: Yeah. Agreed. You also got Jill Sobule who was a big had a hit in the ‘90s.
D: Yeah.
C: You've got… I think it's uncredited… but Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth in there…
D: Yeah.
C: It’s, it's all over the place.
D: And Leslie Gore! Leslie Gore is the co-writer of the Leslie Gore song, which is maybe my favorite recording moment in the movie because… I love the way that's whole… that's all framed with Lucinda Jenney in her own little window, watching them record “My Secret Love”…
C: “My Secret Love.” Yeah.
D: … and Bridget never quite looking directly at her, trying her best not to look at her. I love all of that. I love the… there's like four different stories going on during that recording session that are all playing out in different windows of the recording session. And I love at the very, very end of… the punchline where the guy turns to Lucinda Jenney and he's like, “So, what are you doing after? You wanna go out?” And she's like, “No.”
A: (laughing)
C: (laughing) “No.”
D: (laughing) “No.”
C: Yeah. But it's a beautiful story. I mean…
D: Yeah.
C: It, it, it really broke my heart. Like, it breaks my heart. Like, it's a great… not only the love story between the… Matt, Matt Dillon and Ileana Douglas, but her success at the end… to get what she wanted, just like Carole Kane… King… with Tapestry, right? Like, that's what it's really getting to. Yeah. And it made me wanna go listen to Tapestry again, quite honestly.
D: I, I have two…
A: It made me want to go listen to Tapestry and I don’t… I'm not even overly familiar with it. I was still, I teared up at the end, surprisingly, and I…
C: … seen it?
A: What?
C: Have you seen it before?
A: No. I'd never seen it.
C: Okay.
A: And, you know, we were talking about, like, Premiere magazine and everything. This is a movie that I feel like I read every piece of press on, every interview, and somehow never saw it, which is shocking to me.
D: Wow.
A: So it was just one of those movies that was always on my radar but never in front of my eyes. So again, I think movies find you when they're supposed to find you. And this found me. And I was just… I don't know a lot of the history of it. Shocker. That seems to be a theme when we're watching these these films. But I just let it unravel, let it unfold, and it was, you know, you… I was picking up little pings here and there of things that were familiar. And it was, maybe, you know, it wasn't that far in, and I was like, this is the Carole King story kind of. You know, it was like I had forgotten everything I had read, so I was watching it fresh. It was a very weird experience to feel like I knew a lot about it, had forgotten a lot about it, and then was watching it. But man, Ileana Douglas is just… she's such a fucking queen. Like, I already feel that way about her. So to see her in this lead role, in such a dynamic performance was just, like, yes.
C: I love her.
A: She's so…
C: What I just realized, too, is it's an American music story.
A: Very. Yes. It is.
C: American. Yeah.
D: It is. Yeah. And it’s, and it, and it traces the way it went from one scene to another scene to another and kind of the way each of those scenes takes a toll when the page turns to the next one. How there's always somebody who gets wiped out by that. And you can tell that the Brian Wilson character, I forget what his name is in the movie, he sees it coming.
A: Jay.
D: He knows he's got a little window of time…
C: Yeah, Jay.
D: … to kind of make what he makes. And if he misses that window, they're gonna turn the page and it’s going to be whatever's next. And so he can't hear the… he wishes he could hear the future, and it makes him crazy. It's a beautiful expression of that character, and we've seen I've seen so many movies that try to do the Brian Wilson story in one way or another. I, I really like Love and Mercy, but I think this approaches it in a lovely kind of… by not being the real story, they can do what they want with it, take it to emotional places they wanna take it, and they're not beholden to the truth. And they get it really right. It feels right. You feel what he is afraid of. You feel why he breaks, and you feel how helpless she is to watch it.
C: Yeah. Agreed.
A: It's a really, really good Matt Dillon performance and also… just loving seeing them as husband and wife after being brother and sister in To Die For. Another, you know, favorite mid-‘90s…
D: Yeah, which would have been right before this. I do feel like Ileana Douglas is one of those people who circles… the films that… you see her in so many supporting roles, and one of the reasons that I love that you gave this a spotlight is because it is, front and center, her movie. And, yeah, I, I hope people check it out, man.
C: Yeah.
[musical excerpt from Grace of My Heart plays]
D: I, I don't know how hard that one is to find right now. I am excited because my pick, which is also by a very strong female filmmaker from the, the ‘80s, ‘90s with a distinct voice, is finally going to be very easy for people to get their hands on since the Criterion Collection is adding it. I wish we had ten more Nancy Savoca films than we do. I'm guessing they would all be just as worthy of discussion as 1991’s Dogfight.
[trailer for Dogfight plays]
D: I, I have held Dogfight very near and dear since 1991 when it came out. Is this a film that you guys were familiar with before now?
C: … no?
A: Not… not, well, familiar. But… yeah. Yeah.
D: How about you, Craig?
A: I’d seen it. Yeah.
C: I had not seen it. I remember you mentioning it in, uh, like, the first episode…
D: Yeah.
C: … where I went, in the back of my mind, I gotta do some research on that one. You know? I mean, like, what the hell is a dogfight? But I, I fucking love this movie so much. So, thanks. I mean, it’s… it's amazing.
D: I really, really miss River Phoenix. And I have written about River Phoenix over and over… about, you know, where I think his career would have gone, about who he would have been. I think he was poised to be the guy, I think, from his generation. Every filmmaker that worked with him had nothing but praise for him, and every performance he left behind is, I think, genuinely great and interesting. He never phoned it in and just had this fascinating charisma on screen. I love this movie. I, I think it is a… for those who haven't seen it, it is a period piece set right before a group of people ships out… a group of young men… ships out for Vietnam, and they have one last night in San Francisco. And while they are in town, they decide to hold a dogfight. And that is, by itself, enough material for a movie. It is a horrifying concept that I had never heard of before this film. They play it out long enough that the audience really… if you don't know where you're going, the audience really gets taken on a ride in this movie. You don't kind of see this narrative coming.
I showed this to Toshi not long ago, and it just killed him. And I… he had no idea what the fuck was happening. He really didn't get any of it until it starts to dawn on Lili Taylor's character. And it's just this cruel prank, sort of, that these, these Marines play on these unsuspecting women, and he takes Lili Taylor, who is a girl that he meets in a small diner. And she is outraged and offended and horrified by what happens, and then he spends the rest of the night trying to make it up to her. And at first, I think it's literally just a… I feel bad. Shit.
[clip from Dogfight plays]
D: But it is, along with Before Sunrise, one of the best walk-and-talk romance movies I've ever seen, where you believably see two people click, and the moment happens where they kind of realize, I love this per… I, I actually think I love this person. And it's so realistically written and portrayed, but it's, of course, a compressed impossible timetable. It’s, it's a great two-person movie.
I got a chance to talk to Lili Taylor about this one time at ComicCon. We had a party for Hitfix the night before ComicCon every year, and it got to be a party where people would ask to get their, you know, celebrity clients in and stuff, and they would come and make their appearance and get photographed and things. And one of the people who showed up to one of the parties was Lili Taylor. And she was there for, I think, The Conjuring. And they said, would you like to have a couple of minutes to talk to Lili? And I was like… Yes. Please. So they took us over… they took me over and they… I sat down and I was trying to be cool. And this is…. you know, I'm 53. I'm still not fucking cool. I'm never gonna be cool when I meet certain people because of the, the way these films land on me. And I…
A: You shouldn't be cool when you meet someone like that.
D: … and I’m never going to get to that point where I don't have emotional responses, but I tried to say to her, I love Dogfight and it mattered to me when I saw it. And she got immediately emotional and she grabbed my hands, and I grabbed her hands. And her publicist goes, are you… and she goes, go away. And then I just had, like, ten minutes to talk to Lili Taylor about this movie. And then we, for, like, a minute, talked about Say Anything as well. I'm like, and also, I, I love all the songs about Joe.
A: Oh my god.
D: But this was the one. And I think for her, it was really lovely because this was a movie that did not make a big noise when it came out, and it should have. And I think it must have hurt to have this movie be rejected and kind of ignored the way it was for everybody involved. You know, it's a movie that I have consistently… the one of the few things that I've done as a critic is… I… there are certain movies I've tried to beat the drum for people to see the entire time I've done this job. And this has been one of them. This has been a film I've tried over and over to get people to, to pay attention to. I'm so happy Criterion's doing it. And I don't think it has anything to do with me. I'm just…. the timing is finally… you can point people to it and go, you'll have a… this is a great version. Go pick this up.
C: Yeah.
D: Seeing it again, or or seeing it, Craig, what were your, kind of, reactions to it and, you know, your takeaway from it?
C: I love Lili Taylor just from, you know… she's the indie queen.
D: Yeah.
C: Her and Parker Posey, right?
A: Mmmhmm.
C: And I had no idea this had happened. You know, what it was. And I was thinking when he said… I was thinking, “Wait, Dogtooth?” No. That's not the… but, no, it's sweet. I love the, the, he's just beautiful in it. And there's a melancholy that goes through every single performance he ever gives. But it's fun, too, because… that restaurant scene, I loved it so much.
D: Yep.
C: They're just having a great time. And they had genuine chemistry. And he genuinely cares for her. And she's gen… she genuinely… I know I keep saying genuinely… she genuinely is slowly opening up and says, This guy, I can, I think I can trust him?
D: Yeah.
C: And I think the ending is beautiful. I mean, I know it's kind of, like you said, compressed time. But, it ends like, it… one of the greatest heart… like, emotionally satisfying endings.
D Yeah.
C: In a way.
A: Mhmm.
D: There’s… again, when we talk about music in movies, there's a moment in this film involving her singing where… I know the movie wants us to see Lili Taylor as, I don't know, homely or as plain or as something in this film. And they go to great lengths. When she gets ready for the party, it's panic and everything else, but she looks crazy when she goes to the party. And they immediately soften her out. And there comes that moment where she starts to sing and the camera starts in super close on River Phoenix and super far away from her. And over the course of the scene, we push in on her and we pull away from him. And what happens is we watch him fall in love with her. And the more he does, the closer you get and the more beautiful she is as she sings.
C: That's nice.
D: It's amazing. And I think it's one of Savoca's finest moments as a filmmaker.
C: She actually sings that.
D: Yeah. Oh, and she's awesome. It's so good. The, the performance is so real and so simple and… but, man, does it just land as an emotional… and you see him switch. Like, wow.
[clip from Dogfight plays]
D: In general, River Phoenix, what are your thoughts about him?
A: It's hard to say. Right? Because I was, I feel like, too young to appreciate him when he was alive. So as…
D: Sure.
A: … he passed away, you know, there are movies that I've seen 14 million times that he's in… Stand by Me and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade… but they're not necessarily star performances or main roles. So seeing him get to fill the space of an entire movie, it, it's just devastating in a way. Like… it's absolutely devastating. And for so many reasons… there are other actors that have passed under tragic circumstances, of course, but, like, you just… it's so rarely you get to see this fire burning and you think you know what it's gonna become. It's gonna become this enormous bonfire and then it's gonna catch the building on fire or whatever. And it just didn't. It got snuffed and that was it. And it's just fucking devastating.
[clip from Dogfight plays]
A: And Lili Taylor is, you know, in the way that Ileana Douglas gets a chance to, like, be the lead in Grace of My Heart... this was really, I feel like, one of her first lead performances where she wasn't just, like, the side girl or the best friend or, you know… she’s so… she has a gentleness about her that she brings to everything. And it's so rare and it's so earnest and it's something that you can't learn or buy if you tried. You know what I mean?
D: Yeah.
C: Yeah.
A: So I'm glad, Drew, that you were able to impart that to her, how much the movie meant to you because…
D: Oh, yeah.
A: … I feel like… I hope she hears it as much as she should hear it. You know? The only other thing I was mentioning, Drew, or wanted to mention was… Drew, when you were talking about the moment when she's singing and you visibly see him fall in love with her, basically. There is a moment like that in one of my… it was my first Hip Pocket pick… Dinner in America… where you have this woman singing and he's watching her. And the whole movie kind of just… the whole perspective changes. It goes from one thing to another in the course of the song, and that's a beautiful thing to be able to capture on film so perfectly. And I think you're absolutely right about the scene.
C: I played “Watermelon”…
A: Yep.
C: I played “Watermelon” on repeat, like, a hundred, like, literally twenty times one day.
A: It’s…
C: It's such a good little song.
A: It just infects. Yeah. And so… yeah.
C: Yeah. That's a great little movie. And I… thank you for introducing that to me.
A: Thanks.
C: It, it's also… it… was Running on Empty before or after this? It was… before...
D: Running on Empty was before this. Yeah. Couple years, it was…
C: It reminds me… yeah, and, and it's the same kind of subtle performance. And I… and Martha Plimpton is amazing in Running on Empty. I only say that because he really has a delicate touch with romance. Yeah. You know?
D: Yeah. I, I think he… I think he, in general, was a wonderful costar. He seemed like somebody who was so generous.
A: A generous performer. Yeah.
D: Yeah. Just… and he wanted everybody else to shine as well. I think the… and I'm not being facetious. I think a great example of that romantic chemistry is My Own Private Idaho with him and Keanu.
C: I was thinking that.
A: Mhmm. Yeah.
D: And I think it's one of Keanu’s very special performances. Whatever happened between them is so electric and interesting on… in that film. Yeah, man. This one's great and, god, EG Daily.
A: (whispers) Oh my god.
D: Just…
A: I was waiting for her. I was waiting for her to open her mouth because I'm like, that looks like EG Daily. Is that EG Daily? And as soon as she opened her mouth, I was like, Yeah! Love that.
D: And boy, when she opens her mouth, it's something.
A: Oh, yeah.
D: The, she, she's so good at taking that character that could be almost in-your-face abrasive, and, uh, she plays the reveal perfectly. She, she's so good. I love seeing her in anything. I think she's well-used here. I think all of his Marine buddies are great. I love the running thread that they, they just lie to each other outrageously. And I love that Birdlace’s lie at the end is a lie of kindness. It is to keep something private. It's a really wonderful choice he makes at the end of the film. Yeah. I, I'm so happy that you guys watched this one and that, yeah, we're gonna talk about it and get people to… provoke them to see it.
[clip from Dogfight plays]
D: I hope that happens as well with the film that we're gonna wrap up with today. Your pick, Aundria. This was the final film for legendary director Robert Mulligan, but it introduced us to a brand new movie star, Reese Witherspoon, who was only 14 when she made 1991’s The Man in the Moon.
[trailer for The Man in the Moon plays]
D: Talk about your relationship with this one, Aundria.
A: I wish I remembered the first time I saw it, but I think it was on the Disney Channel or something like that in the mid-‘90s, right?
D: Wow. Okay.
A: As one of those, like, family, you know, Disney family movies…
D: Heavily edited, I’m sure. Yeah.
A: … because it's about a family question mark. I… and I do wanna say before we go to Man on the Moon, there is a… there's something in Dogfight about the pain of being perceived as a woman, especially of that certain age, and the, the cruelty that you can face or take in from the outside world and how you choose to process and perceive that cruelty, right? A million movies have done it. Not every movie has done it so expertly, so authentically, and so almost subtly, even though there is a bit of an explosion as how Dogfight was and how Lili Taylor's character handles it. It's more of a rage than a heartbreak. And I just, I did want to point that out because I think it's it's such an important thing. And watching it as a young girl, the first time I saw it, it was fucking devastating. It's heartbreaking, and it's still heartbreaking to watch now as an adult.
D: It's upsetting. And it, it…
A: It is.
D: … it is not underplayed or played as a joke. It's upsetting and really profoundly hurtful.
A: Mhmm. Yeah. To say… I say that to say this: there’s, there's moments in Man on the Moon that are so uniquely specific to being a 14-year-old girl and to having that first crush where you're like, this is, this is what it's all about, you know? And Reese Witherspoon is just… it's like you're watching a home movie for the majority of the film because she is so herself. She is this little girl, this character who's going through some shit. Her family is, you know, she's rebelling against her family, and her older sister is beautiful and she's a tomboy and…
[clip from The Man in the Moon plays]
A: … wow. I really love this movie. And there's a punch to the gut that is so unexpected about 2/3 of the way through. And it, it turns it into a different movie, really. So I'm really curious to what my two adult men friends thought about it.
D: I saw the film when it came out. I was a fan of it then. I'm more of a fan of it now looking at it, and I, I do think it is the perspective of age. I think it does a terrific job of capturing a turning point in youth. And, yeah, it's a home-run movie star performance from Reese Witherspoon. She is so natural. She's very loose-limbed. She's a gangly little thing running around in this movie. And…
A: So much.
D: … she reminds me of all of my friends' sisters from a certain age growing up in the South, and it's specifically a Southern movie. This is absolutely an outdoor Southern… this feels like I remember my childhood, big chunks of my childhood, and the outdoor time that you spend and the sort of secret life that you have. And, you know, your parents are not necessarily hovering over you. But I love… there's a thing that Sam Waterson does repeatedly in the film, where he will stop her to have a conversation with her. And when they're done, he goes, “Alright, then.” And that's it. “Alright, then” is the punctuation mark. And I… fathers, at a certain point with adolescents, you have that punct… it’s, okay, you're dismissed. We're done. Now we can go back to just the way things are, but I have… this is the end of me using this disciplinarian voice, and it's really well-etched, and it's just in a couple of scenes, but you get a sense of history and how that plays out. I think he's great. I think Tess Harper's great.
[clip from The Man in the Moon plays]
D: I like the older sister. I like Jason London a lot. But, man, it’s, it's Reese Witherspoon's movie. She is so big and so shiny in it. And it is a coming… you know, it is one of those coming-of-age stories where because you like the kids so much, every emotional kind of turn in the film lands for you. She's really good at playing the sort of realization that she has actual feelings for him. And it might be one of my favorite first-kiss scenes ever in a movie.
A: Mhmm.
D: It's a great one. Craig, did you know this before we watched it?
C: [clears throat] Okay. Drew, you know… hang on.
A: Buckle in for this one.
C: I do. I do. I'm a very… I'm a very short emotional trigger.
D: Well, here's the thing. I, I look at this… there are scenes where she's running around, and I thought of your daughters because of the physicality of your daughters. It's impossible not to. I know your daughters well enough to… the ponytail and the sort of gangly… I’m, like, well, that's Frannie. That is, that was Frannie, 100%, at a certain age. So…
C: Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stuff this down. Yeah. Because I won't get through this if I don't. I was watching it yesterday, and Veda was upstairs. And she tumbled down… she's 14. She tumbled down the stairs, and she was, like and she's 14, and it's a different world. And I'm very lax with language. And she goes, “Are you fucking watching Man in the Moon?”
D/A: (laughing)
C: “I love this movie so much. Dad, you have no idea. I'm gonna tell you a story. And I’m…”
A: Awww.
C: (laughs) Just give me a second. So she was like, “I saw, I was watching this last summer, and I was upstairs watching it. And Frances…” My oldest daughter. So Veda's 14. Frances is 18. Okay? So they're about the same age…
D: Yep.
C: … as…
D: Mhmm.
C: … and she was upstairs in her room watching it, and Frances had just gotten home from a dance.
A: Awww, Craig.
D: Oh my goodness.
C: She came upstairs, and she said, “What are you doing?” And, and Veda's like, “Oh, I'm watching this movie.” And so she said… and Veda was telling me a story. I didn't know this story yesterday. And Veda said, “Oh, Frances jumped in bed with me, and we were just watching it as sisters. And we were just crying because it was so emotional. And I was like…” And she's like, “It's one of my favorite movies because I watched it with Frances and we just loved that movie together.” And I went, “I can't talk to you about this right now.”
D: Oh my god.
A: Oh my god.
C: Yeah. Aundria, you, you really nailed it. I mean, it is such, it is such a specific… as Drew… Drew's already said everything that’s so great about it and being this coming-of-age story. But I see my daughters in both those characters, and I've seen their heartbreak.
D: Yeah.
C: [choking up]You know? When you get, when you get your, your, your heart shattered by some dumb fucking boy… I saw it. And it was… and it was conveyed so beautifully and so subtly in little Reese Witherspoon's face.
A: Mhmm.
C: And I cannot believe that I didn't know this movie. Not that I know every movie, but it… did it do well? I don't even know…
D: It did okay. It did okay. Critics liked it. Roger Ebert was a big fan of it. He really beat the drum for it all year and put it on his top ten list. And…
C: Okay.
D: Like, he, he stumped for it. It, just, was… you know, it was a tiny movie that came out in October and got rail… and just ’91 was a giant movie for year… a giant year for movies. So I think there were just so many things that were bigger that it kinda got lost. But, yeah, it definitely… I love the fact that it has enough of a life and that it is still in circulation in a way that your daughters could just organically find it.
A: That makes me so happy.
C: Yeah. Yeah.
A: And I…
C: Yeah. It’s, it definitely…
A: You know, when I used to watch it as a younger person, I always thought it was a movie about her and Court, her relationship with the boy. Right?
D: Mhmm.
A: Watching it this time, I’m, like, no. This is a movie about sisters. This is a movie about family. This is a movie about heartbreak.
C: Yeah.
A: And it’s, it's so not about their relationship. It's about her emotions surrounding the relationship, and her sis… and her older sister and how she feels about that. And, oh, god. Just a weepy mess at the end of it, of course, which… it's not even sad at the end.
C: See, I'm a lot more… I'm more a weepy mess now than I was when I was watching this.
A: Yeah. It’s… I, I’m… it’s so good.
C: But that's the magic of, of movies. Right? I mean, you know, that’s, that's it. Like, when it can have that communal thing and it surprises you how it affects somebody that you love so much, like my daughters. It's just, like, well, that’s… that's the best movie ever made. Yeah. You know what I mean? I don’t… I don't need anything else.
A: And I love that you found it a different way. Like, they had that…
D: Yeah.
A: … and didn't necessarily share it with you or didn't share it with you yet.
C: I know.
A: And you were watching it…
C: That’s a great thing.
A: Yeah. And then it… you know, that's amazing.
C: It's like Drew said earlier, they brought that to… they found that on their own. And that, they're their own people, and the movie's about finding who you are. I mean, it sounds so ridiculous, but, you know, it’s, it's hard being a teenager. And I'm sure… and I can't even speak. I can only look at it as a dad. It's probably fucking a million times worse being a teenage girl.
D: Oh, yeah. I, I, I… it's funny. I wondered if I would remember the feeling enough to have empathy as a parent when I had a teenager and we went through, you know, the big ups and downs. And if anything, I really feel like my kids got the shit end of the stick. It is an awful fucking time to be a teenager and a young adult. It's awful. So I feel, if anything, much more protective of them and much more like, you know, whatever I can do to give you a leg up, I'm going to because, God, did we hand you a plate of crap. Like, it's just, just a terrible time. And I think, emotionally, it's more confusing than it's ever been. I, I think they're lonelier. I think they're more isolated. I don't think they connect in the same ways. So, like, I love that they have a movie like this that is as emotionally honest and direct and not sentimental and phony.
A: Mhmm.
D: Even with the left turn this film takes, and it's a left turn. It is a wild ending.
A: Hardly.
D: Yeah. It feels emotionally right. It is not about the shock so much as it's about can these characters realize they need each other to get through it?
C: Yeah.
D: And I… that's so simply etched and so believably done. And the sisters are so good together. I really… I love Robert Mulligan. I… To Kill A Mockingbird is one of my very favorite movies and was early in a career. You know, the idea that that was 1962, that was thirty years before The Man on the Moon. And he was so good with kids at that point, and he got such great kid performances in that movie. And then at the other end of his career shows he still has his fastball. He still knew exactly how to not only find a young movie star, but then really give them room to shine. Reese Witherspoon does everything in this movie. She is heartbreaking sometimes. She is funny sometimes. She is…
A: She's indignant.
D: She’s, she's so great and belligerent with her dad sometimes. I re… I, I thought it was just a, it's a very special film. I, I don't know how available this is right now, but it's definitely one that people should track down and see.
[clip from The Man in the Moon plays]
C: This has been quite a therapy session for me.
D: Yes.
A: I love that we all picked… I love that we all picked movies that are very, very female-focused in, like…
D: Yeah.
A: … in the ‘90s…
C: Oh, yeah.
A: … of all eras. Like, that's pretty… not only are they period pieces, but they're all, you know, they’ve basically got female protagonists.
D: I don't think people understand. We do not consult. We just… we each pick a film and then we send it. And then the end result is this interesting… how did the… you ended with that lineup? And, you know, Craig, you asked me off mic after the last episode… Really? For the ‘80s? Really? That's the movie? And, and it's a very fair question because…
C: Yeah.
D: … I, we're not trying to be representative of the whole decade. That's impossible. You can't pick one movie. I think if you're gonna pick a ‘90s movie… Pulp Fiction, maybe.
A: Right.
D: Kinda sums up the decade. But even so, you're leaving out so many other things if you do that. So these, these are very personal choices and very idiosyncratic choices, and I do like the way they've, they sync up. Yeah.
A: I think he asked me the same thing after Jaws or… or Jaws 2. Drew, it's fine. Don't be offended.
C: Hey. And don’t… I, I wanted to say, I, I don't think… in the last episode, I caught the Jaws 3 reference, by the way. I know they got lost on you.
D: Yeah.
C: We heard you. Yeah. We heard you say Jaws 3. And you're gonna die on that Jaws hill is what you're gonna do. I know you… this is what you're doing.
A: It just, it’s… I don't know how it became my thing, but there you go. I know.
D: The next time we, we sit down to talk, we are going to be jumping into the 21st century, with three very personal visions. One of rural childhood, one of people who feel like they're being forgotten, and one that tells the story of a fixer who cannot fix himself. It is a great lineup, so you wanna make sure to tune in when we discuss the first decade of the 2000s on the next Hip Pocket.
[the Hip Pocket theme plays]
D: It's as simple as it makes me happy, and I hope you makes it hap… I almost did it. Almost did it. [clears throat] Take two.
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